Joshua ([info]the_caveat) wrote in [info]nonfluffypagans,
2010-02-03 14:11:00
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Christians desecrate wiccan religious site....

Veterans Today has an article regarding the asshattery of Evangelical Christians on the campus of the Colorado Springs military academy there. Essentially, some nice Christians left a cross at the spot where the pagan and new age folk gather to do their Sabbat, Esbat and moon-howling-navel-gazing rituals (depending on the attending trad).

In light of previous aggressive actions taken place on that campus against non-Christians, I think I can understand some of the response from the newly sensitized management-- but frankly I'm surprised at the complete lack of perspective here.

They left a wooden cross at a spot that isn't innately sacred to anyone. I'd get the point were I to arrive for a ritual and see it, but I'd probably respond with something like "Hey look! Someone brought us firewood!", then a shrug, and then would proceed with the ritual with a nice cheery bonfire.

Generally speaking, in the traditions I'm aware of, a sacred space is created just for the ritual being performed-- and then deconsecrated at the end, leaving the space back to its original state. Someone else's religious prop doesn't change what I do in that space.

I suppose I'm just disappointed to see that there's a lack of perspective and pragmatism that I'm used to with the local pagans here. The drama and tension created between different religions always involves people engaging these bigots on the level they prefer-- and I frankly can't see any ensuing tribunal doing other than driving a wedge in their already stratified community and justifying the evangelicals' paranoia about "Anti-Christian Bigotry".

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  • 78 comments

[info]pierceheart

February 3 2010, 19:41:56 UTC 2 years ago

godwin warning

If, in a chapel that wasn't specifically consecrated to any one faith, but saw a lot of use by Jewish Cadets, someone left a swastika, woud you still feel the same way?

[info]the_caveat

February 3 2010, 19:47:26 UTC 2 years ago

Re: godwin warning

I'm not sure if this quite qualifies as a Goodwin argument, so I think you're in the clear.

A synagogue is a different scenario since the space IS sacred and considered so all the time. A swastika on a synagogue has a direct intonation for violence where a (unlit) cross left in a place where pagans celebrate is just a intonation of ignorance.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'd have a response, but I'd try and do it in a way that was the least disruptive to myself and those in my coven / circle / group / community.

[info]foxesdaughter

2 years ago

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[info]the_caveat

2 years ago

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[info]komikbookgeek

2 years ago

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[info]komikbookgeek

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[info]the_caveat

2 years ago

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[info]komikbookgeek

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[info]the_caveat

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[info]komikbookgeek

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[info]brock_tn

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[info]the_caveat

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[info]brock_tn

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[info]the_caveat

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[info]princekermit

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[info]smarriveurr

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[info]brock_tn

2 years ago

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...and 6 more comments... from [info]pinkpolarity, [info]pierceheart, [info]the_caveat… Expand

[info]smarriveurr

2 years ago

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[info]vixenesque93

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[info]pierceheart

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[info]smarriveurr

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[info]pierceheart

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[info]smarriveurr

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[info]pierceheart

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[info]smarriveurr

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[info]pierceheart

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[info]smarriveurr

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[info]the_caveat

2 years ago

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[info]smarriveurr

2 years ago

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[info]ouranophobe

2 years ago

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[info]pierceheart

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[info]swisscelt

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[info]vicki_sine

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[info]komikbookgeek

February 3 2010, 19:44:10 UTC 2 years ago

Given what's been going on, I think the reaction is justified.

[info]vrimj

February 3 2010, 19:48:58 UTC 2 years ago

I agree that "rude" seems to make more sense then "horrible" from where I am sitting. If I were 19 and under the stress of trying to graduate from a service acadamy during wartime I would probably react differently, but I would like to think that I would just move it aside (because burning it would seem like answering hostility with hostility) and then ask the christians at the next interfaith council if there was an interst in sharing the site and if that was going to be the case could we agree on ritual clean-up? I have grown up since I was 19 and no that nothing is as annoying to bullies as you failing to take their message as aggressive.

[info]brock_tn

February 3 2010, 20:33:13 UTC 2 years ago

In the context of a service acadamy, though, failing to respond aggressively to an aggressive incident is acting against type. Service officers are REQUIRED to be aggressive: it's an utterly essential trait in a warfighter.

The people who need reined in are the people who posted the cross in the first place.

[info]vrimj

2 years ago

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[info]brock_tn

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[info]swisscelt

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[info]voxwoman

February 3 2010, 19:49:22 UTC 2 years ago

I also think that burning the cross would send an unintended message (Unless you were also dressed in bedsheets and pointy hats).

[info]the_caveat

February 3 2010, 19:53:52 UTC 2 years ago

Well... you see, I'd have to argue with them over that point.

"Really? This isn't firewood?"
"No!" they would scream "It's a sign of our saviour! It's sacred!"
"But I thought it was against your laws to worship a graven image, according to Exodus 20" I'd retort.
"..."

See? Everyone would win from that act! We stay warm in mid-February and they get a bible lesson.

[info]brock_tn

2 years ago

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[info]brock_tn

February 3 2010, 19:52:45 UTC 2 years ago Edited:  February 3 2010, 19:54:44 UTC

As Mike Weinstein has already pointed out, would you feel the same way if someone had built a sizeable swastika and left it in a space reserved for Jewish services?

The point here is that within an institution that is required both by law and by Air Force Regulations to be supportive of the religious needs of all of its students, some persons resident on the base have committed an overtly hostile and deliberately provocative act of religious intolerance. Were I the Commandant at the Air Force Acadamy, if and when the perpetrators were identified, I would likely feel compelled to send them before a review board to determine whether their evident inability to act in accordance with the Air Force's established policy on religious tolerance renders them unfit for commissioning. Were it to be determined that the perpetrators are members of the faculty or the permanent staff of the Academy, I'd expect to see them brought up on formal charges of Conduct Unbecoming, or Conduct Prejudicisl.

[info]the_caveat

February 3 2010, 19:58:26 UTC 2 years ago

Hm. I suppose I'm not looking at it from a procedural discipline issue. That makes sense.

Were I a group leader, with that in mind, I'd probably not press for "justice", I'd just continue on with my work and accept my Commandant's choice of actions quietly to keep any image of a sectarian vendetta being waged.

[info]brock_tn

2 years ago

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[info]pinkpolarity

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[info]the_caveat

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[info]pinkpolarity

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[info]the_caveat

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[info]ouranophobe

February 3 2010, 20:21:49 UTC 2 years ago

I don't know that I'd consider the cross left there to be desecration, pretty much for the OP's listed reason wrt creation and release of sacred space. I wouldn't see the swastika in a gym as desecration for the same reason. Rude, yes. Intolerant, yes. Not desecration.

I wouldn't opt for the cross burning, either, though I will confess I'd be sore tempted to make a joke or three about just that. Responding to insensitivity or intolerance with an equal degree of insensitivity really doesn't help the situation any, and only tends to escalate hostilities, in my experience.

It is a pity that the Academy isn't being more responsive to the matter and I do have to wonder, had a similar incident been done to one of the other religious worship centres, would the reaction have been as "tepid"?

All in all, I'm with [info]brock_tn... handle it as a matter of regulations, if they're able to find out who did it.

[info]swisscelt

February 4 2010, 01:10:45 UTC 2 years ago

Well, how about "desecration", as in the desecration of the Constitution and of the esprit de corps of the US military? This wasn't just an offense against us Pagans. It was an offense against the chain of command, and against the Commander in Chief whose aims were directly called into question by these insubordinate and traitorous airmen.

And no, I don't think that's putting it too harshly, but I will defer to Brock and Pierceheart on this.

[info]pierceheart

2 years ago

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[info]swisscelt

2 years ago

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[info]ravan

February 3 2010, 20:37:26 UTC 2 years ago

Actually, if the circle is intend to be set aside as a regular worship space, it will accumulate a sanctification 'residue' by its nature. If it is thought of as sacred space, set aside as sacred space, it becomes sacred space, just not of the level required for particular rituals.

It may well have been 'dedicated' as sacred space by the first people to use it, because it isn't temporary, it is set aside space. Not to any particular tradition or gods, but dedicated as sacred or worship space for earth/pagan/heathen religions.

[info]damiana_swan

February 3 2010, 21:06:38 UTC 2 years ago

*points up* What a lot of them said.

--From what I understand, the circle isn't historically sacred space, but it *is* dedicated ritual space specifically for the pagans attending the academy.

--Having someone put a large (railroad ties, really?) cross in the middle of what the authorities at the academy set up as dedicated pagan ritual space is certainly an act of intimidation and intolerance (your space is OURS) and is also a very deliberate rebellion against the military authorities who set it up that way. Given that this academy has had some pretty severe issues with religious intolerance by evangelical Christians (both staff and students) over the past several years and also given that the current administration have specific orders to Fix That, the placing of the cross in the circle is ... disturbing, to say the least.

[info]onyxtwilight

February 3 2010, 21:15:42 UTC 2 years ago

My reaction was much the same as yours: "oh, look -- firewood delivery. That'll make a HUGE bonfire! Awesome!"

You'd want to chop it up, first, of course. It's firewood, after all. What reason would we have to burn a cross? *innocent blink*

Yes, whoever put it there was an unmitigated asshat. That's the world. Giving their antics more power than they deserve doesn't help anyone, and I'm always a fan of stealing power from the enemy and turning it to my own purpose, if possible.

Also, I strongly agree with [info]smarriveurr's points, above. This was all manner of rude and inappropriate and blatantly offensive, but we're not at "horrible desecration" yet. Doesn't mean we won't GET there, given the climate as it stands... :-/

[info]mzwyndi

February 4 2010, 23:45:12 UTC 2 years ago

Christians desecrate wiccan religious site....

What you said. Plus, really, the cross is s pagan symbol as long as someone else's dying god isn't hanging from it. (cross vs. crucifix)

[info]meddevi

February 3 2010, 21:20:05 UTC 2 years ago

heh, glad to read I wasn't the only one who thought "hey, look fodder for the bonfire! thanks guys!" and the irony of a big flaming cross...

[info]tylik

February 3 2010, 21:22:27 UTC 2 years ago

It also seems not unlikely that even if the cross didn't actually manage to be a desecration, it was meant as such. If someone, say, left a pentacle*, especially one of similar size (this was, after all a cross made out of railroad ties - I think "imposing" at least can be assumed intent) in the church of one of the people who left the cross, desecration would probably be claimed.

I think there's a few different levels of response. I think it's quite appropriate for a ritualist to be as calm and low key as possible. The proper authorities should be notified, but hey, when you've been offered the moral high ground, might as well hold it, and hysteria rarely adds to one's credibility.

For school authorities, it's rather a different issue, and yeah, especially with the past history, dealing with it very firmly seems quite appropriate.

Once upon a time, back in my undergrad years (early nineties) one of the Christian student groups decided to do a pray in outside the meeting of the Pagan student organization. Now, as was typical, we were all hanging out, eating lunch and talking about our physics homework. I kind of vaguely noticed, when we left, that there were a bunch of people holding books, but it didn't click, and as a group we were oblivious.

However, there had been repeated problems with harassment by a couple of the Christian groups (of many, many different ones - I have no reason to believe that this wasn't a minority problem). People at the queer student union noticed what was going on, it was reported, and dealt with. I think this was a good situation for everyone involved. (I mean, maybe we shouldn't actually have been so oblivious, but really, strategically it would have been a good move, had it been intentional.)

* I'm not talking about my worldview here, but it has a certain public recognizability.

[info]ouranophobe

February 4 2010, 20:33:30 UTC 2 years ago

It also seems not unlikely that even if the cross didn't actually manage to be a desecration, it was meant as such. If someone, say, left a pentacle*, especially one of similar size (this was, after all a cross made out of railroad ties - I think "imposing" at least can be assumed intent) in the church of one of the people who left the cross, desecration would probably be claimed.

I quite agree, also on the point of keeping the moral high ground when it has been so thoroughly given.

If my earlier response was insufficiently clear on the matter, I certainly don't mean to imply that this is some sort of minor incident and should be disregarded. It absolutely needs to be dealt with swiftly and harshly by the administration. I'm just with [info]smarriveurr on language deflation, is all. But, like many in this thread, I'm not in the military, nor have I ever attended a military academy, so my perception of the matter is coloured thus. I'll defer to [info]swisscelt's and [info]pierceheart's experience, as I lack that context.

[info]darakat_ewr

February 3 2010, 21:40:37 UTC 2 years ago

It could be just my Communications degree talking, but I think the media may have blown this out of proportion. Putting a cross in the specifically designated pagan space is worth making a bit of a fuss about, but just as much as if the placed it in the space for any other religion. Its not exactly hate crime of the century though.

[info]pierceheart

February 3 2010, 21:54:24 UTC 2 years ago

I would agree with you - if i didn't have the context of the Evangelic Christians at USAFA basically telling anyone who isn't one of them that they aren't welcome and should fear for their safety.

[info]pinkpolarity

2 years ago

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[info]darakat_ewr

2 years ago

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[info]dragonhearth

February 4 2010, 00:14:19 UTC 2 years ago

How this occurs depends. Were the Pagans threatened and intimidated by this act? If so, it is an act of vandalism, (leaving trash) and at most a hate crime. Hate crime in CA at least. I don't know the hate crimes in Colorado and am too lazy to look them up at the moment but if they have that language in the law, that makes it qualify.

In the past here in CA when I have had to call police because someone was disrupting our Pagan Pride Festival, I used those words- that I was and so were others, feeling threatened and intimidated and I was worried there would be violence. The police had a very prompt response with a lot of vehicles dispatched.

[info]komikbookgeek

February 4 2010, 02:23:51 UTC 2 years ago

Were the Pagans threatened and intimidated by this act?

Yes, yes they were. And it's a part of a long pattern of abuse by people they are supposed to be able to trust.

[info]swisscelt

February 4 2010, 01:20:48 UTC 2 years ago

This ain't college.

I think a lot of you are trying to compare this to similar situations, both real and hypothetical, at colleges and universities. Folks, this ain't college. The culture is completely different, and I don't see this as overreacting. It's not just vandalism, it's a deliberate act to demoralize members of the Armed Forces. It's one step short of bloody treason.

[info]pierceheart

February 4 2010, 01:32:49 UTC 2 years ago

Re: This ain't college.

It's one step short of bloody treason.

This - it's a deliberate attempt to railroad service-members out of their training, to get them to quit trying to be officers.

If it were done by an Islamicist - attempting to get someone afraid of physical violence because of their religion - in the military, we would call it domestic terrorism.

[info]mzwyndi

2 years ago

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[info]redregon

February 4 2010, 02:01:24 UTC 2 years ago

it's wood... it's not like someone was nailed to it.

if they're doing this, then i would think that they're intimidated. but, when you look at what most pagan paths advocate, what is there to be honestly intimidated about? nobody was actually physically hurt, so, why should it really matter? so long as all they're doing is throwing childish tantrums and nobody is getting harmed by it, so be it.

but in the end all that it is is wood. it only has meaning if you want it to.

besides... i'm sure when most of us took up our paths, we should have known that it wouldn't be a popular choice with everyone in the world.

[info]pierceheart

February 4 2010, 15:12:08 UTC 2 years ago

*sigh*

It is a culture which trains people to manage the controlled application of violence.

In that culture, some members have decided to leave what is obviously (in context) intended as a threat to the Pagans.

Your attitude reminds me of the people who say that the best way to deal with bullies is to ignore them, they'll go away.
That shit doesn't work.

[info]redregon

2 years ago

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